TORONTO KALA-AFGHANI JEONVALA WASHED-OUT IN DEBATE WITH PANTHIC SINGHS PANTHIC.ORG | Published on February 10, 2010
Courtesy: Sur Sagar TV, Toronto
Toronto, Canada - A loud and boisterous debate took place last weekend in Toronto between Panthic Singhs and an anti-Dasam Granth nindak, Gurcharan Brar Jeonvala. As predicted, the Panthic Singhs soundly refuted every point Jeonvala raised and in turn presented many irrefutable proofs in support of the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth.
Jeonvala, the mind behind numerous anti-Panthic articles and websites originating from Toronto, had been regularly challenging supporters of Sri Dasam Granth to debate with him, and thus had become the de-facto spokesperson for the local Kala-Afghani lobby.
Whereas Jeonvala represented the anti-Panthic lobby, Bhai Sukhbir Singh and Bhai Sukhmander Singh were backed by pro-Panthic organizations, such as the Akhand Kirtan Jatha (Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib), DamDami Taksal, Shahbaaz Khalsa to bring forth the Panthic viewpoint.
The debate was aired on Sur Sagar TV’s ‘Bhakhday Maslay” weekly show hosted by Ravinder Singh Pannu. Sur Sagar TV is Toronto areas’ oldest and longest running Punjabi TV channel and is widely watched by the local Punjabi population.
Bhai Sukhbir Singh began the debate by explaining the history surrounding Sri Dasam Granth and the historical texts which support it including the writings of Bhai Jaita or Bhai Jeevan Singh, Bansavalinama P: 10 by Kesar Singh Chhiber and Guru Kian Sakhian by Sarup Singh Kaushish. Bhai Sukhbir Singh further established that no Sikh scholar including Bhai Kanh Singh Nabha, Gyani Dit Singh or Prof. Sahib Singh ever opposed Dasam Granth. Furthermore, and most importantly Dasam Granth is an inseparable part of the Nitnem and Ardas which are recited daily by Sikhs.
In an attempt to prove his point, Jeonvala began to quote some historical texts out of context and distort history but was cut off by the host of the show Mr. Pannu, for his intentional misinterpretations.
English words in Sri Dasam Granth?
When asked to present any proof to support his allegation that Sri Dasam Granth was not the work of Sri Guru Gobind Singh, Jeonvala attempted to quote verses which he stated contained English words such as ‘near’ and ‘lady’. The Panthic Singhs left Jeonvala without any answer when they showed him that the word “lady” was in fact “layndee” which means coward and is not an English word in any way.
Further, when the same methodology is used on the bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the Singhs showed that several words were common in English and Punjabi such as the word “day”. The debate took a humorous turn when Jeonvala was reduced to repeating obscenities when he could not explain the tuk :
Jeonvala’s ignorant arguments took another twisted turn when he attempted to state that contents of Sri Dasam Granth were copied from Shiv Puraan and Markande Puraan. When asked to substantiate this allegation, he was unable to do so and could only state that one line of Shiv Puraan reads “Kaal Kaal” which he ridiculously suggested was proof that Sri Jaap Sahib was copied from, drawing laughter from the Panthic Singhs and even the studio members. Intrestingly, not too long ago, another pro-Kala-Afghani, Inder Ghagga, had claimed that Jaap Sahib was from Markande Puraan, like Jeonvala he too failed to provide any evidence backing this preposterous claim.
Under pressure from the Panthic Singhs, Jeonvala taking a quick break
When none of Jeonvala ’s arguments were successful, he resorted to plain name calling, slandering Sri Dasam Bani as “kanjar kavita”, resulting in demands for him to retract his statement by the host Mr. Pannu. Having no other choice, Jeonvala meekly agreed to retract his statement.
Some of the key points made by the Panthic Singhs in the debate included:
Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, including : Bachittar Natak Granth, Chabees Avtar Granth, and CharitroPakhyian Granth.
Sri Dasam Granth Sahib was also known as Dasam Patshah Ji Ka Granth, and was standardized for off-set printing in the late 1800s by the Panth.
Amrit and Nitnem Banis are documented by eye-accounts written in the Bhatt Vahees, and Bhai Jaita Ji (Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji) writes his eye-witness account as:
Bhai Mani Singh Ji's letter to Mata Sundari Ji regarding the compilation of Sri Dasam Granth is authentic, and metals nibs did exist in India during that time. It was also pointed out that the style of writing by Bhai Mani Singh Ji was similar to the style used by Guru Har Rai Sahib.
It was also pointed that the real intention of people doubting Sri Dasam Granth is to reject the concept of Amrit-Sanchar (Khanday-ki-Pahul) and thus eliminate AmritDharis from the Panth and this is exactly in line with the Indian Government's long term plan to marginalize and eliminate Sikhism from India. They referenced the Baat Cheet in the Indian Army Gazette No. 153, 1984 published stated:
“...Amritdharis, who are dangerous people and pledged to commit murders, arson and acts of terrorism, should immediately be brought the notice of authorities. These people might appear harmless from outside but they are basically committed to terrorism...”
Sri Dasam Granth condemns the worship of devi devtas. The RSS would never accept such a Granth that exposed this truth to the world. In actuality, it is the RSS and Indian Government agencies who want the Sikhs to condemn Sri Dasam Granth, and these detractors are working at their behest.
The Panthic Singhs asked Jeonvala whether he would classify Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Mani Singh, Sirdar Kapur Singh IAS, Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar RSS agents? As predicted, Jeonvala again failed to answer the query put forth by the Singhs. Whisked away to safety
It is obvious that the disgraced Jeonvala could not keep his composure throughout the debate and failed to have a sensible discussion with the other participants. It was reported that due to his outbursts against Sri Dasam Granth, an irate group of Sikhs had arrived outside the TV studios near the end of the debate. Fearing for his safety, Jeonvala was escorted out to a vehicle by the studio management, and whisked away quickly out of sight.
For the Kala-Afghani lobby, Toronto’s truck-driver ‘scholar’ Jeonvala had now become a liability instead an asset.
The discussion was awesome and Jeon-wala was like maran-wala when was asked to quote jaap sahib lines from markandey puran/shiv puran....
This debate cud have been like the debate between bhai kulbir singh ji and ghagga, as pannu ji was interupting in between, this was a negative point......
Jeonwala is man behind all slander of Dasam Granth sahib. He was main teacher of Darshan Ragi as Darshan ragi does not know anything about Dasam Granth.
Sukhbir Singh was right when he said there are other anti Sikh forces behind Jeonwala doing dirty work against Dasam granth.
Ehni choti umar vich ehna giyan te kinne piyar nal javab dite ne ehna kafiran de jehre rabb di hond nu khatam karan lagge ne, te veer meriyo jiven siyane kehnde ne 'danda Pir hai Vigrayan tigrayan da'.
Ehna sarian da ek ilaaj hai ki ehna sare akhoti vidvaana da kathh karkee antam sanskar sikh maryada anusar kita jaye kiyonki eh hun dharti te bhaar ban chuke va.
Te Veer Sukhbir Singh ji Je aus akaal purakh sahib ne tuhade te kirpa kiti hai te sari duniya vich ja ke eho jahe marjivde paida karo ki kalla kalla ehna papian da javab de sake.
Guru Sahib Tuhanu hor chardi kala vich rakhan. Ajj panth noo nahin pata par ik din avega jis din itihas gavahi devega.
Te Ant vich, Virle hi ne jehre jamane no apne piche chalonde ne, jamane naal ta har koi chalda hai.
Great job by Panthic Singhs. This debate is a master piece, shows how ignorant fools are these so called missonaries ... Jeeonwala has not even taken Khanday Dee Paul.. how will this nastik know the power of Jaap Sahib?
Guru Maharaj Ahna Nastikaa Nu samat Bakshan ... kirpaa karan ...
Bibek-Budh, Ujjal Didaar, Bhai Sukhbir Singh:
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
I just finished watching the debate. You have handled this utmost matter with utmost responsibility. The fact that you highlighted the depth, far-sightedness, and beauty of literary, and character-building power of Sri Dasam Bani- it was indeed examplary. Dhann Dhann Satguru Gobind Singh ji's magnetic power sat on your tongue during this discussion. You have decimated the filth. ignorance, mischief, and falsehood of these semi-literate people in exactly the same manner as Meharbaan Satguruji has said:
Dhann jeo teh ko jagg meh, mukh te Har chitt mei judh bicharrei||Deh anitt na nitt rahei, jas naav chareh bhav sagar tarrei||
...the punch line: Gyaneh ki badhnii manoh haath lai katartaa kytwaar buharei!!
Gyan guru atam updeso naam bibhoot lagayio....Yes, the darkness and illusiory thoughts stand no chance before a Gurmukh....Mook uchrei shashtar khatt, ping girn charh jaaeye!! Undh lakhei, badhro sunei jau Kaal kripa karayey....
It was so obvious that this fellow was too keen to use the filthy words to placate and pamper his sick mind by misinterpretting and indulging in his imaginations. The truth is that Gurbani manifests itself in innumerable ways: Paas na deii koi behan jagat meh Gooh parh sagwi mal laey manmukh ayiaa....Haan, the manmukh gets to receive human excreta put in his mouth...Dhan Dhan bani nirunkaar hai tiss jewadd awar na koyey...
You have effectivly shut up this cunning chap that he was bewildered thoroughly like the famous Punjabi poetical rendition by Prof. Puran Singh Ji: Kar deh saboot merey kann bhalyiaa maansa, Baal-Nath Guru de Sikh nu hath la pachhtayiaa....
A person devoid of any formal training in true Taksali Gurmat study, and without ethical living - Jeewan - only meets such a fate always. The ragi darshan seon is exactly same ditto copy. He learned few tunes on wajjaa, and twisted any shabad as per his mind's somersaults, and thought he can fool Khalsaji.
Prabhsharan Singh (February 12, 2010, 12:02 am) New Delhi
Shame! He said jaap sahib taken from Shiv purana by just quoting 'kal kal' it was baseless this shows their aim is to do kurh parchar,adding i laughed at it very much and it was worth laughing i mean quoting kal kal and proving that Jaap sahib is from Shiv puran and lastly he thought to say this pavan bani 'kanjar kavita' so the that two Singhs would lose their temper.
Very well done by two Singhs not losing their calm and answering them.
deep (February 13, 2010, 11:02 pm)
long live panthic singhs may guru sahib bless our kaum with such gursikhs who can answer these gur nindaks like kala afgana & sons pty. ltd
Term Daseven Patshah Da Granth does appear in Bansawali Nammah by Kesar Singh Chhibber .See line 1, Verse 384,Charan 10.
Adi Granth Ate Dasvin Patshahi Da-Doven Granth Ek Kariaya.
Got Adi Granth and Daven Patshah Da, both Granths as one.
One of the Beerh of Sodhak Committees doing Sodh of Shri Dasham Granth Sahib(during late eighties) does has origin in Kabul so Jeonawala saying that all Beerhs from east direction ,of British Empire influence Area is a false statement.
Details of Seva/offering going to Patna Sahib before reverting to Shri Amritsar Sahib By Mother of Panth when Bhai Mani Singh took over the charge of Shri Amritsar Sahib as sent by Mother(Rattan Singh Bhangu,Prachen Panth Prakash, Refer to Verse 7, Chapter Sakhi Bhai Mani Singh Ji Ki).
Read Rahitnammah Bhai Daya Singh Ji, to see the description of Abchal Nagar as Sikh centre ,running in totality as witnessed by contemporary of Guru.
So assertion by Jeona Wala that these two Takhats were made during Maharaj Ranjit Singh period is a big lie.
Female allowed in Shia Mosques since long so it with Sufis(In India their headquarter is in Bareli). So his assertion that Muslims do not allow ladies in mosque is nothing but a slander and attempt divide the Sikhs and Muslims, unity of both is must in India.
If RSS gives name of some people who could work for them for Hindu Sikh Unity but later shun the same after its hidden Agenda is exposed, why not Darshanu Ragi has not as yet filed law suit against Mr Dhar and Mr Roberio, who wrote that he was pro to them during the days of Kharkuwad ?
Krishna’s Rang could be changed by Hindus at later stage but recorded already by Guru. So real truth of Hindus recorded by Sikh Guru else Hindus. As Hindus also change their text often, so they may misguide Sikhs, if they go to Hindus, so contemporary Hindu text is recorded.
Krishanvtar verse count different from saying numbers written in Anandpur written less, while full Krishnavatar has a much more verses. Reason
ਗਯਾਰਾ ਸਹਸ ਬਾਨਵੇ ਛਂੰਦਾ ॥ ਕਹੇ ਦਸਮ ਪੁਰ ਬੈਠ ਅਨੰਦਾ ॥੪॥
Gyaaraa sahas baanue chhandaa|| Kahe dasam pur baith anandaa||4||
There are eleven thousand and ninety-two stanzas in respect of Krishna incarnation in the tenth skandh.4.
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Line 4
ਭਾਗ
SECTION
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Line 5
This means that till here such part was written in Shri Anadpur Sahib while the rest of the part was written at Shri Paunta Sahib. As we find the mentioned.
ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
Dohraa||
DOHRA
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Page 1133, Line 6
ਸੱਤ੍ਰਹ ਸੈ ਪੈਤਾਲ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਵਨ ਸੁਦਿ ਥਿਤਿ ਦੀਪ ॥ ਨਗਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਨ ਜਮਨਾ ਬਹੈ ਸਮੀਪ ॥੨੪੯੦॥
Sattrah sai paitaal maih Saavan Sud(i) thit(i) deep|| Nagar Paanvtaa subh karan Jamnaa bahai sameep||2490||
In the year 1745 of the Vikrami era in the Sudi aspect of the moon in the month of Sawan, in the town of Paonta at the auspicious hour, on banks of the flowing Yamuna; (this work has been completed).2490.
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Page 1133, Line 7
ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗਉਤ ਕੀ ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਅਵਰ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਧਰਮ ਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ ॥੨੪੯੧॥
Dasam kathaa Bhaagaut kibhaakhaa karibanaae|| Avar baasnaa naah(i) prabh dharam juddh ke chaae||2491||
I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord ! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491.
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ਧੰਨ ਜੀਓ ਤਿਹ ਕੋ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਚਿੱਤ ਮੈ ਜੁਧੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ ਦੇਹ ਅਨਿੱਤ ਨ ਨਿੱਤ ਰਹੈ ਜਸੁ ਨਾਵ ਚੜੈ ਭਵਸਾਗਰ ਤਾਰੈ ॥
Dhann jeeo tih ko jag mai mukh te har(i) chitt mai judh(u) bichaarai|| Deh anitt na nitt rahai jas(u) naav cha?ai bhavsaagar taarai||
Bravo to the soul of that person, who remembers the Lord through his mouth and reflects in his mind about the war of righteousness; who considers this body the war of righteousness; who considers this body as transient, ascends the boat of Lords’ praise a
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Page 1133, Line 10
ਧੀਰਜ ਧਾਮ ਬਨਾਇ ਇਹੈ ਤਨ ਬੁੱਧਿ ਸੁ ਦੀਪਕ ਜਿਉ ਉਜੀਆਰੈ ॥ ਗਯਾਨਹਿ ਕੀ ਬਢਨੀ ਮਨਹੁ ਹਾਥ ਲੈ ਕਾਤਰਤਾ ਕੁਤਵਾਰ ਬੁਹਾਰੈ ॥੨੪੯੨॥
Dheeraj dhaam banaae ihai tan buddh(i) su deepak jio ujeeaarai|| Gyaanah(i) kiba?hanimanoh haath lai kaatarta kutvaar buhaarai||2492||
Who makes this body as the abode of forbearance and enlightens it with the lamp of intellect and who taking the broom of knowledge in his hand sweeps away the rubbish of cowardice.2492.
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Page 1133, Line 11
ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਸਿਕੰਧ ਪੁਰਾਣੇ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾਵਤਾਰੇ ਧਯਾਇ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ ॥੨੧॥
It(i) SriDasam Sikandh Puraane Bachitra Naatke granthe Krishnaavataare dhyaae samaaptam sat(u) subham sat(u)||21
End of the concluding auspicious chapter of Krishnavatara (based on Dasham Skandh Purana) in Bachittar Natak.21.
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Page 1133, Line 12
With Kana male becomes female ,then Ram becomes Rama as female, Term Nanak also has Nanaka with adding Kanna, here to address or Sambodhan we have Kanna added and nothing to do with making female gender. Example for term Rama and Nanaka with Masculine gender could be seen on Ang 873 and Ang 14 of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji respectively .
Shiva and Shakti, in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is more to do with sprit(energy in pure form) and nature(energy in matter forms). Other meanings could be
SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਸ਼ਿਵ ਜੀ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਸਿਵਾਸਕਤਿ ਸੰਬਾਦੰ॥ {ਗੋਂਡ ਨਾਮ, ੧, ੪:੧ (873)}।
SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary
P. n. Shiva
SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.
English Translation
(1) Burning pyre. (2) Except, without. (3) Moreover, in addition to.
Var Durga Ki, we have term Var used in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. All Vars are related to Ragas. Durga is also a Raga. Term Durga Path is named of individual text like we have Simlar Texts like Kuchaji(unskilled lady) or Karalhe(Camel) named in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, non means that they worship Camel or unskilled lady. As a Vadhans Ki Var talks of Raga of Vandhansa(Ang 585 ) and not the Great Swan/Hans incarnation of Vishnu. So could be with the case of Ramkali Ki Var(Ang 957) , it is not the bud of Lord Rama of Hindus but Raga. So Durga is Rag used by Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
Coward/lendi can kill by deception not by straight fight. Term Lendi is also used for dropping of animals like Dog, Deer, Goat etc.
Term Amrit for the holy fluid of baptism is used in Gurbilas Patshai Dasvi by Kuer Singh(Chapter 9, verse 9.(27).Again term Amrit is used by Rahit Nammah Bhai Daya Singh ji and Rahit Nammah Bhai Desa Singh Ji(Verse 7).
So Jeona Wala’s forcing term Pahil instead of Amrit is actually a mark of propaganda with ulterior motives.
To see Banis of Nitnem, Jeona Wala is requested to see Gutka belonging to Guru with the family of Bhai Rupa or Gutka belonging to Baba Deep Singh(who again was contemporary to Guru).
Another height of hypocrisy of Jeonawala could be seen when he quotes some so called resolution by SGPC in early 1940s or 1970s as benchmark. While he himself goes against the Maryada by SPGC when he opposes Japu Sahib or try to force term Pahil, while term Amrit is used in there. Thing does not ends here. He disobeys Huqanamah of Shri Akal Takhat Sahib as during 2004(ordering Sikhs to stay away from debate over Shri Dasham Granth Sahib), 2006(Terming Shri Dasham Granth Sahib Bashers as mischievous elements), 2008(Declareing Shri Dasham Granth Sahib as inseparable part of Sikh history and literature). If SGPC could be obeyed then why is not obyed at present by him ?
Kal Ka Kal terms(in Sadhu Bhasha) appears in Shri Guru Granth Sahib used for God(Kal Kale is Sanskrit translation of it), so when is Jeonawala going to reject it.(Ang 1403).
Chingi’s King Chingas Sain is king 402, Charitrpakhyan, not Tenth Master as Jeonwala tries to say and twist the fact by connecting it with Rai, like Darshanu for this statement he could be summoned to Shri Akal Takhat Sahib. He is changing topic very fast, trained by professional to create misinformation. Beware of him.
Dalbir Singh (February 18, 2010, 1:02 pm) Turlock, CA
1. There is English word ( Like ) Ankit In SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI and more words available but find them yourself please .
2. (OSHA JANAM HAMARA.....SGGSJ) Nothing more ASHLEEL than human himself. These non ashleel people forget that how they born.
If they are the only following the truth can they talk on media about all the actions to make their wives pregnant?
Question raised - Who makes kam (sexuality) in all creatures? Who made those body parts they have been using to create lovely kids( every human)?
If answer is only PARMATMA please understand my point.
Inder singh (February 20, 2010, 6:02 pm)
VD singh ji
You have given very great analysis. It came to my mind too that Jeonwala changed topic very fast and never stuck to one topic. This was a sign of lack of confidence. He will be caught if he remained on one topic.
So to avoid that he is jumping quickly from one topic to another. This is called training in propaganda by professional agencies.
Secondly he was very particular to mention name of sikhmarg. This is propaganda site of kala afghanism. He took pains to mention it twice with full web address.
That says a lot. These people want exposure to gretaer audience and think that more people will follow them.So they are playing on game of numbers.More sikhs denounce dasam granth by their propaganda more strength they will get.
Singhs have halted their schemes.
Jagjeet Singh (February 25, 2010, 1:02 am) USA
Great Discussion.
Dhan Guru. Dhan Guru Piyare...
Just for reference, English language has borrowed tons of words from different languages. e.g. Mother comes from arabic etc.
Word Near in english might have been borrowed from Sansklrit. This word Near is also used in Tulsidas Ramayan:
Rishayamook Parbat Nearaya...
I came across this word when I was studying Hindi in grade 10.
waheguruji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fathe
Great job by Panthic Singhs. This debate is a master piece, shows how ignorant fools are these so called missonaries ... Jeeonwala has not even taken Khanday Dee Paul.. how will this nastik know the power of Jaap Sahib?
Long live panthic singhs may guru sahib bless our kaum with such gursikhs who can answer these gur nindaks like kala afgana & sons pty. ltd
nidek ka muk kala hoa deen dunia ka darbar
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fathe
Jagdip Singh (June 13, 2010, 1:06 am) New Zealand
hahaa very good vir ji, u taught these nindaks a lessons....keep up the good work
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Bahut achey Sukhbir Singh ji.
